Join the debate
Jump in the Crossfire by using #Crossfire
on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram.
Religious freedom vs. discrimination
What's more important, protecting religious freedom or avoiding discrimination? The pressure is growing as Governor Jan Brewer has yet to make her decision whether to sign or veto the Arizona "religious freedom" bill.
At 6:30pm ET on Crossfire: Neera Tanden, who is against the bill, and Peter Sprigg, who supports it, join Van Jones and S.E. Cupp to debate.
We want you to weigh in: Should businesses be allowed to refuse service based on religious beliefs?
Vote by tweeting Yes or No using #Crossfire or comment on our Facebook post. View results below or through our Poptip results page.
|
|
Posted by CNN's Christina Manduley Filed under: Fireback • Gay rights • In the Crossfire • Neera Tanden • Peter Sprigg • Religion • S.E. Cupp • Van Jones |
Meet the Hosts
Author, documentary filmmaker, historian, Speaker of the House (1995-1999), and 2012 Republican presidential candidate
Fmr. Obama Deputy Campaign Mgr. and W.H. Sr. Adviser, founder of Precision Strategies, fmr. Sr. Adviser to Maj. Leader Reid and Sen. Kennedy
Conservative columnist for New York Daily News, contributing editor at Townhall Magazine, commentator and author
Former Special Adviser for Green Jobs under President Obama, co-founder of Rebuild the Dream, author and attorney
Dear Supporters of the Arkansas Martin Luther King, Jr. Commission,
During the 89th General Assembly 2013 Regular Session, Arkansas Code Title 27, Chapter 24, Subchapter 14 was amended to add an additional section to read as follows, “27-24-1411 Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. license plate”. The Director of the Department of Finance and Administration shall issue a special license plate in honor of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., in the manner and subject to the conditions provided for under this subchapter.
Petition:
Therefore, the Arkansas Martin Luther King, Jr. Commission will complete and submit an “Application for Special Interest License Plate” regarding the issuance of an Arkansas Martin Luther King, Jr. Commission Special License Plate.
The issuance of this plate is important because it will commemorate Dr. King. This plate will be available to all eligible Arkansans through the Arkansas Department of Finance and Administration.
Along with an “Application for Special Interest License Plate”, the Arkansas Martin Luther King, Jr. Commission will have to submit a minimum of 500 signatures in order show support for this plate.
This is where the King Commission needs your support. The King Commission encourages all residents of the state of Arkansas who are the owner of one (1) or more vehicles, to place their e-signature along with the year, make, and license plate number of one of the vehicles that they own on this petition.
As the undersigned, you verify the following:
*You are a resident of the state of Arkansas;
*You are the owner of one (1) or more vehicles. Unless prevented from doing so because of circumstances beyond your control, you will register at least one (1) vehicle that you own with the special license plate named above, if such plates are approved by the Arkansas Department of Finance and Administration;
*You are aware that there are annual fees, in addition to the regular registration fees, for such special plates;
*You are aware that the Office of Motor Vehicles must receive a minimum of 500 signatures, $5,000, or a combination thereof, before this special plate can be ordered or issued; You are aware that, under A.C.A. 27-14-303, the penalty for making a false statement on a motor vehicle application, concealing a material fact, or otherwise committing a fraud in any motor vehicle application, upon conviction, is punishable by a fine of not more than one thousand dollars ($1000.00) or by imprisonment for not more than one (1) year or both;
*You are aware that there is a $50.00 annual fee which is forwarded to the King Commission, in addition to the regular registration fees, for such special plates.
If you have any questions, comments, or other feedback, then please feel free to contact our office at (501) 683-1300. Thank you.
Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. Arkansas License Platesee less
Dear Supporters of the Arkansas Martin Luther King, Jr. Commission,
During the 89th General Assembly 2013 Regular Session, Arkansas Code Title 27, Chapter 24, Subchapter 14 was amended to add an additional section to read as follows, “27-24-1411 Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. license plate”. The Director of the Department of Finance and Administration shall issue a special license plate in honor of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., in the manner and subject to the conditions provided for under this subchapter.
Therefore, the Arkansas Martin Luther King, Jr. Commission will complete and submit an “Application for Special Interest License Plate” regarding the issuance of an Arkansas Martin Luther King, Jr. Commission Special License Plate.
The issuance of this plate is important because it will commemorate Dr. King. This plate will be available to all eligible Arkansans through the Arkansas Department of Finance and Administration.
Along with an “Application for Special Interest License Plate”, the Arkansas Martin Luther King, Jr. Commission will have to submita minimum of 500 signatures in order show support for this plate.
This is where the King Commission needs your support. The King Commission encourages all residents of the state of Arkansas who are the owner of one (1) or more vehicles, to place their e-signature along with the year, make, and license plate number of one of the vehicles that they own on this petition.
As the undersigned, you verify the following:
• You are a resident of the state of Arkansas
• You are the owner of one (1) or more vehicles. Unless prevented from doing so because of circumstances beyond your control, you will register at least one (1) vehicle that you own with the special license plate named above, if such plates are approved by the Arkansas Department of Finance and Administration
• You are aware that there are annual fees, in addition to the regular registration fees, for such special plates
• You are aware that the Office of Motor Vehicles must receive a minimum of 500 signatures, $5,000, or a combination thereof, before this special plate can be ordered or issued; You are aware that, under A.C.A. 27-14-303, the penalty for making a false statement on a motor vehicle application, concealing a material fact, or otherwise committing a fraud in any motor vehicle application, upon conviction, is punishable by a fine of not more than one thousand dollars ($1000.00) or by imprisonment for not more than one (1) year or both
• You are aware that there is a $50.00 annual fee which is forwarded to the King Commission, in addition to the regular registration fees, for such special plates.
If you have any questions, comments, or other feedback, then please feel free to contact our office at (501) 683-1300. Thank you.
Sponsor
Arkansas Martin Luther King, Jr. Commission
Links
http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/dr-martin-luther-king-jr-license-plate.html
Hollywood has had a black list on conservatives for nearly a century. You don't need a law to discriminate as liberals have proven.
According to the law it IS wrong to refuse service to someone of homosexuality. If they simply refused to make them a cake JUST because they were homosexual, that is wrong. If they refused because the cake had homosexual things on it, this goes with their freedom of religion. If the couple went to that extent, they should bring their service to a company that is not openly religious.
This bill is ridiculous. What kind of service would anyone even receive?? Are they wanting to give everyone a surveys on religious beliefs to determine who they can and cannot provide service to??. How would you even determine who your business is?? Any business who would even consider this, should not even be in business. This bill definitely deserved a big fat veto of NO!
I like Crossfire. I do not like that the liberals constantly interrupt the conservatives, and SE and Newt just sit there politely. I know that they have to treat the liberals with kid gloves, as they make little sense, (and CNN wants to show liberals in the best light), but it is too obvious! Expand the show to 1 hour, put it in that useless Piers Morgans time slot, (Don't let lady liberty slap you on the fanny as you fly back to socialist Britain, Piers!)
PS, S.E. remember how sick to your stomach you felt when you were at BSNBC? But you told yourself it was worth it, cuz someday, you would get a gig where you could be yourself? Well? When are we going to get to see the S.E. Cupp that raise the intellectual level of Red Eye? Or does your contract with CNN have a "Don't make the liberal cry" clause in it, like BSNBC? And Newt, once in a while, tear Stephanie and Van a new one, they deserve it, or as Georgians are wont to say "Show them where the bear crapped in the buckwheat!"
But you are ok with O'Reilly interrupting the POTUS each time he started to speak.
Where in the bible does it say you can use a gun to kill even if it is for defense? So should there be a law discriminating against people who support using guns for defense? BS.
So then the feelings of gay people are more important than the feelings of Christians? I'm Christian, and I support the law. If I own a restaurant or bakery, I should be able to refuse service to anyone! I firmly believe homosexuality is wrong, but I have to conform to the few gay people out there because my opinion "Offends them"? there are about 239.4 million Christians in the US. That's 76% of the US population. There are only 4 million gay people in the US. That's only 1.2% of the US population. So the minority's opinion is more important than the majority's? Stop oppressing Christians!
You honestly believe that you should have the right to hang a sign on your business saying "Blacks not served here"?
Because that's what you're trying to do... violate the civil rights act of 1964.
I can't believe there are people like you still around. You do NOT have the right to deny service to people because of protected classes. You can't not serve people of irish descent. You cannot refuse service to muslims. You cannot deny service to women. You cannot deny service to those who are pregnant but not married. You cannot deny service to those of a specific race. You cannot deny service to "little people". You cannot deny service to homosexuals. You cannot deny service to old people. You cannot deny service to non citizens. You cannot deny service to veterans.
These are ALL protected classes. You CANNOT discriminate in hiring or providing services based on ANY of these classes. Our laws do NOT allow signs saying "Blacks not served here" anymore... and that is GOOD. We used to allow that and it was a dark time in our nations history.
So because Christians are in the minority in Syria, the Muslims have the right to discriminate against them. Please climb down off the Cross and give Jesus room to work.
you are a plastic Christian. If Christ were alive today he would not be on your side.
Exactly. Which is why it angers me that I can seem to hire a catering company for my wedding, simply because I'm in love with and want to marry my horse, Wilbur. They say it's immoral, but I was born that way. Maybe I can get some legislation passed.
The classic strawman argument of the ignorant. If your horse Wilbur is able to sign consent then you can marry him.
Since when has the word "freedom" been contorted into the right to oppress others? In America, most of our necessities are met by capitalist markets. Water to drink, food to eat, shelter and clothing to protect us from the elements are generally only available by purchasing them, so if those who provide goods and services are allowed to deny market access to select groups, those groups could be denied access to the most basic needs, basically attempted murder by attrition. There is still plenty of religious freedom, the right to build a church, (unless its a mosque, then those screaming loudest for their exclusive religious freedom are the first to oppress other people's Constitutional religious freedom), the right to change faiths or have no religion at all, the right to abstain from whatever vice du jour is circulating in society, but when the term "freedom" becomes conflated with the right to oppress, the word "freedom" becomes an oxymoron. Just because someone attaches the word "freedom" to a cause does not make the cause just or moral, so beware of people who wield words such as "freedom", "liberty", "justice", "family values", and especially "God" as syntactic instruments to promote oppression.
YES
The way one person chooses to live their life is not an attack on another person's freedom, religious or otherwise. A gay couple walking around in a public place is not "throwing their lifestyle" in anyone's face any more than a family with three children playing in the park is throwing their fertility in anyone's face. I think the problem is more that people think that they are the center of the universe and that all must conform to their ideas. If they stop making what gay people do their business and it won't bother them.
There is no debate. You can not discriminate against any tax payer for any reason. They paid taxes the get equal treatment.
Sure you can.
Just not on a protected class.
It's okay to hang a sign saying "No shirt, no shoes, no service." You're discriminating based on attire... but that's okay. It's not a protected class.
It's not okay to hang a sign saying "We don't serve veterans". That is a protected class. So is sexual orientation as of June of 2013 when the Supreme Court struck down DOMA. Their decision wasn't narrow... it made discrimination against someone because of homosexuality a violation of civil rights equal to discrimination based on race, gender or age.
It's an embarrassment that it's 2014 and we're still debating things like this. No one is stopping anyone from having religious freedom so long as it doesn't intrude on other people's freedoms. You want to believe in an invisible man who will send you to some clouds or a fire after you die? Fine. You want to believe in an eight-legged elephant god? Fine. You want to believe you'll come back as a nematode after you die? Fine. You want to pretend these things give you the right to demand someone not be allowed to shop somewhere or have equal quality of life or marry someone just because you don't like it? You've gone too far and you need to learn to stop being a narcissistic prick.
The real embarrassment is that it is 2014 and so many still cling to a piece of bronze age fiction, which is the root for the embarrassment of being such hate filled ignorant yahoos.
The BILL OF RIGHTS and the CONSTITUTION come first last and always......Religious fantasies have no place in the real world.....where LAW should be the only deciding factor.
Christians who follow the teaching of our Lord Jesus Christ should know, that Jesus ate with prostitutes and tax collectors and drunkards. His example shows that God requires us to love each other regardless of our sin. It is God's greatest commandment. And to then try and use an all loving God, to justify an act of hate, denying service or hospitality to another, is not Christ like.
Greg, I absolutely agree. As a Christian we are charged to imitate Jesus in how we live... knowing also he was the only perfect person to walk this earth. So lets forgive ourselves too b/c we make mistakes and lets geniunely try to work to our best. We are absolutely to show love to everyone. Jesus is documented to sit with prostitutes, tax collectors, people who did morally and law breaking things etc... in fact, I am sure he would sit with me knowing the countless mistakes I have made in my own life. He loves me too, knowing all of my shortcomings. I do, however believe Jesus would not deny what he knows is truth. So the lessons I take from scripture, are to love all people... but to be true to what I believe and for me the bible is my basis of truth. I believe I agree with what you are saying but I think we have a culture now that condemns more than we should; both sides of many arguements end in condemnation of the other. AND I also see a culture that doesn't recognize the difference from disagreeing and condeming... they are different.
The Bill of Rights and the Constitution MUST always come first.....religions are based on fantasies and should NEVER take precedence over any law in this country.
Our country was founded on people seeking religious freedom. It seems ironic to hear you quote a consitution in the same lines that you call religion 'fantasies'. A respect for everyone's belief seems void here; ironically the point to this argument.
.
And your desire to rub your genitalia on anything that moves does not make you more important than my beliefs.
What ever happened to the fact that it is illegal to mix politics with religion? Why are we making laws based on what "God" wants or don't want?
Its Freedom OF Religion, NOT Freedom FROM Religion.
Actually, it is both. The intent was to make sure that no one suffered the way that the Church of England made other denominations suffer.
Well said, Kurt. This entire thing is bordering on pure insanity.
No law should ever be created to discriminate and prevent someone from exercising their religion and their religious beliefs.
It wasn't.
They are still allowed to disapprove of homosexuals. But if they come in for a burger, they can't refuse service to them, any more then they could to a Muslim or Jew (who Christians also believe are sinners), an underaged pregnant girl (who christians also believe are sinners) or an unwed couple who are sexually active (who christians also believe are sinners).
They can disapprove. But all of those are protected classes under US civil rights law as it stands today... along with categories like age, sex, citizenship, disability and race. If you are a business that serves the public, you cannot discriminate in who you serve based on ANY of those classes. I don't believe you should be able to start a religion that hates blacks and ignore those laws. So I also don't believe you can have a religion that hates gays and ignore them either.
That this is even a debate is proof that we have forgotten the oldest lesson of our nations existence. Our founding fathers CREATED this country to escape this exact kind of discrimination. This to my mind means that claiming to be an American and practicing discrimination is hypocritical at best. And now history is being reenacted by those ignorant of it.
Your freedom of religion is also others freedom from your religion. You cannot have one without the other.
(Open comment to all who feel discrimination based on sexual orientation should be legal.) Please, feel free to post your cherry-picked bible verses prominently in your place of business – the verses about homosexuality and how it's an abomination and so on – because then I will know I don't want to give your business any of my hard-earned money and you can't get in trouble for discriminating against me. It's a win-win! Could I then be accused of reverse discrimination?
How ironic that it has taken the fight by gay people for equality has exposed religion for what it really all about. , I do not like to stoop to their level and call names, How sad that a group that could do so much good has been stuck attacking gay people for what the book of myths and ledgends says about gays. We were born this way and or created by your god,Descrimination in these United Stataes is against the constution and all,gay people will be granted all rights including to marry whom we love, to the Christians get over it,we love you
time to tell the TRUTH about the hypocrisy of liberalism: http://manhood101.com
Please read the contents of the bill before firing from the lip/hip. If I am a devout Jew or Muslim, I would not serve any pork products to a diner if I was on the waitstaff of a restaurant. Should I be fired for that refusal? Or should I bake a cake for a polygamous wedding of one man and three women? Or should a nurse assist in an abortion despite his/her religious beliefs? It's not a cut-and-dried situation so must be carefully and thoughtfully discussed and debated. Blanket discrimination: no! But selective exercise of religious liberty? By all means...
I feel if you spend your money and your time to open a small business you should have the right to refuse service to anybody you want.
When you get a business license you are expected to inform yourself of local ordinance as well as state and federal. There are many states that have already made laws protecting against discrimination based on sexual orientation. I know that the states of Oregon and California do. To couch an act of discrimination as religious freedom is disingenuous to say the least. There is no guarantee that your personal belief will have eminence or even influence in the public forum is delusional. I believe we are over populating the planet and that severe and substantial human suffering is coming humanities way if we do not censor ourselves in the form of birth control...should I be allowed to turn away families that are larger that 3 or 4 based on my passionate and fervent belief? I think not. I have no desire to legislate my view.
@Kurt: "Your faith does not excuse you from the law."
Sure it does, in some cases. People are exempted from military service, immunization laws, curriculum requirements, Social Security, and some Obamacare rules.
Whether these situation rises to the same standard is the question. Arguing from absolutes which don't in fact exist is a pointless exercise.
I should clarify that I believe all of those allowances are bad as well.
I don't think religion should ever by an excuse for avoiding punishment for law breaking. A religion is defined as "an organized collection of beliefs, cultural systems, and world views that relate humanity to an order of existence."
That means you can make up a religion with a set fo beliefs and world views that is simply stupid... and get status as a religion. That's essentially what L. Ron Hubbard did with Scientology... a science fiction author made up a story and sold it to a bunch of people as a religion. Look up Pastafarians for another ridiculous example.
We should not have a legal system in place where an individual can just make up a world view, then be exempted from the law because it conflicts with their religious beliefs. Christian Scientists don't believe in doctors. So are we going to allow businesses run by Christian Scientists to not provide medical coverage for doctor visits? If not, then we are we allowing mainstream Christians to not provide coverage of contraceptives?
It's NOT religious freedom. It's using religion as an excuse to ignore the law. And we cannot have that.
I am a white male , you would think that I would be discrimination free, and society says that I am the one doing the discrimination, however if you really want to experience discrimination, ride a harley , and when you take off youre helmet, and put on your dew rag, so you dont have to go into a restaraunt or hotel with helmet head, I have been told, we dont want your kind, we dont cater to your kind , and dont want you hear. I have went back to those same restaraunts without the dew rag, and been welcomed with open arms. I never knew how discrimination felt, until I bought my hog, Its tough being a white guy , in the world today, too bad I dont get any preferential treatment ,everyone in the world except white guys do , either as a minority or female, guess what, we have it as bad as anyone, in fact I believe we are now the doormat for the world.
There is already a slippery slope. Barney Frank stated on CNBC last night that he believes any company operating in a public domaine should be forced to do business with every one no matter what their beliefs are. Government forcing companies to do what the government wants. I call that a slippery slope.
Religious beliefs do not give you permission to break the law.
If I found a religion based on rampant heroin use, robbing liquor stores and using domesting violence against women, should that be permitted for those who follow my religion.
Of course not.
So if your religion supports descrimination, that shouldn't be permitted either. Your faith does not excuse you from the law.
Well said, Kurt. This entire thing is just teetering on the edge of insanity.
Just to make you aware, there aren't actually laws against discrimination. At least for the time being we are still have the constitutional right to believe what we want to believe. The thought police are coming, that's for sure. But at least at this moment in time, we as human beings, are still free to have whatever belief we want, whether others see it as discriminatory or not.
How is the gay community not discriminating against Christians by forcing them to forsake 2,000 year old beliefs?
Remember, this bill came to light, not because people want to refuse gay people service on-site, in-store. This was spurred by stories over the last couple years of service professionals, one that came to a site, who were forced, by law, into uncomfortable situations.
For example, a Photographer was approached and asked to photograph a wedding. When he discovered that it was a Gay Wedding, he said that due to religious reasons, he could no longer photograph the wedding. The Gay couple went to the state, and the state forced him to photograph the wedding. They could have just gone and found another photographer, but they felt they needed to use the power of the State to force this man to come to their wedding against his will.
There are lots of laws against discrimination.
We have employment laws that prevent hiring decisions based on protected classes. (Title VII of the 1964 civil rights act).
Businesses that are "places of public accommodation" have to follow the same rules with serving customers as they do with employees. The same job descrimination rules apply. The vast majority of businesses are classified as "places of public accommodation".
What the law would have done if not vetoed is allow people to violate those laws if they claim they were doing so because of religious beliefs.
I believe that is bad.
That's a terrible example Kurt. We aren't talking about people doing anything illegal of that nature. However, If one is to accept your example, you have it backwards.
Lets assume for a minute that you are a woman-beating robber with a rampant heroin habit. I say it's morally wrong, you say it's your life choice, and I'm a bigot and heroinophobe. I say ok, I can't stop you, but I'm telling you it is destructive behavior, and I'm not going to join you. You aren't satisfied with that. You want me to pick you up at your drug dealer's place in my taxi, stuff your beaten woman in my trunk, and drive you to the liquor store so you can rob it. I say no, it would be morally wrong of me to support you.
So here we are. Do I have the right to deny you my support of your choices, or am I punished for not helping you?
It is illegal under the civlil rights act of 1964 (Title VII) and it's ammendments for a business that is a "place of public accomodation" to discriminate based on any protected class.
Those protected classes are currently:
-Age
-Race
-Color
-Religion
-National Origin
-sex
-pregnancy
-citizenship
-familial status
-disability
-veteran status
-genetic information
-sexual orientation
Arizona was trying to work around this by saying that if their religion says it's okay, they CAN discriminate based on those things. But the fact is, I can make up ANY set of beliefs and call it my religion. My religion could be intolerant of christians (in fact, many ARE). Then I could legally discriminate against Christians in Arizona.
It's a BAD LAW. Making discrimination legal as long as you cite religious beliefs is just dumb. Obey the dang law.
Interesting. The emphasis seems to be on the law
People with faith based beliefs are trying to do just that-Follow the Law.
The only difference being they give more credence to the laws and Commandments of Lord Our God
Homosexuality is an abomination and goes against nature.